Dr. Franklin: 0:00
People who inspire us to become the best versions of ourselves. They are able to do that because moral leaders possess integrity, courage, imagination a host of virtues that prompt them to serve the common good and prompt them to invite others to join the process of building a better community and a just society.
Bishop Wright: 0:40
Hello everyone, this is Bishop Rob Wright and this is For People. Today I am honored to have a special guest with us, Dr. Robert Franklin, who holds degrees from Morehouse College, Harvard Divinity School and the University of Chicago and is presently the James and Berta Laney Professor in Moral Leadership at Candler School of Theology. Dr Franklin, welcome, thank you very much. A real delight to be with you at this School of Theology, dr Franklin welcome.
Dr. Franklin: 1:05
Thank you very much. A real delight to be with you at this time of the year.
Bishop Wright: 1:09
Yeah Well. So I’ve asked Dr Franklin on, because Dr Franklin has wrote a book some years ago a couple of years ago, 2020, in fact on moral leadership, integrity, courage and imagination. And I’m thinking about we’ve just buried Jimmy Carter this month. We are thinking about Dr King his 96th birthday would be in just a couple of days and, as I talk to young people, young people are not exactly sure about going to church, but young people are interested in this thing that I am calling moral leadership. So can you just set the table for us? If we’re going to talk about moral leadership, what are we actually talking about? Define that for me.
Dr. Franklin: 2:00
I think about moral leadership as people who inspire us to become the best versions of ourselves. They are able to do that because moral leaders possess integrity, courage, imagination, wisdom, empathy, motivation, wisdom, empathy a host of virtues that prompt them to serve the common good and prompt them to invite others to join the process of building a better community and a just society. So that’s a compound definition, but essentially it gets at people of virtue who serve the common good, not just their own interests, and who invite others to join.
Bishop Wright: 2:55
Dr Franklin, you know you’ve written about this. You hold the Laney chair at Candler. The Laney chair at Candler, you live this out as the 10th president of Morehouse College. Why do you care about this? Why is this occupied? So much of your intellectual space.
Dr. Franklin: 3:16
Because the single best predictor of whether or not an organization will thrive, predictor of whether or not an organization will thrive, whether a community will be conducive to the flourishing of all of its members, whether a society will prosper and persist, the single best predictor is the presence of moral leaders, the presence of leaders of integrity and courage and vision, and leaders who are serving, looking out for all people, starting with the least advantaged members of the community. And so the presence of moral leadership is almost a promise to the future and a promise to existing community members, that there’s someone at the helm here who thinks about all of us, thinks about how we can all flourish and wants us to recognize our fundamental interdependence. We can’t be separate, we can’t be apart, we are connected, and that’s the fundamental message of leaders like President Jimmy Carter and Martin Luther King.
Bishop Wright: 4:31
And so these people, you know, come to this doing and being from lots of different places, from lots of different faith traditions in fact, and some maybe even from no faith tradition. But they come and they begin to behave differently and some of the ways you’ve described they begin to out of their own personal sort of value compass and then they arrive at if we were trying to graph this out then they arrive at within the community, some sort of moral authority, right, and then that moral authority then becomes some kind of moral leadership and then, interestingly enough, it’s cyclical, then it goes back to and is refreshed by principles and practices. Have I got that right?
Dr. Franklin: 5:21
Yes, that’s exactly right, and I think you characterize it very well.
Bishop Wright: 5:25
Yeah, and so what would you say to people who are worried about, you know, the moral state of our nation through this conversation? They’re worried about the moral state and they’re wondering if, when we bury people like Jimmy Carter, if we aren’t also saying goodbye to an era where people worked on behalf of others, even if it cost them politically and economically, et cetera, and that those days are gone by and this new way doesn’t bring forward this radical commitment to the dignity of every human being and also the well-being of, especially, at least, the lost and the left behind. What do you say to that?
Dr. Franklin: 6:12
Well, I think that we all do have a reason to worry, because leaders set a tone at the top. This is one of the things I’ve admired about your leadership in the church and the larger society. Leaders set a tone and certainly through their language and their rhetoric is really critical. Words matter, prioritize our fundamental concerns, and so I think there is a worry, now that we will see a president of the most powerful nation in the world and a nation assumed to be, and often celebrated to be, a leader of nations, that we will be guided by someone whose tone at the top is self-centered.
Dr. Franklin: 7:10
Is America first, apart from the well-being of others, is exceedingly materialistic and, perhaps most tragically, is transactional. Is seeking to move a nation forward through making deals that benefit us first. America first. Transactional, in contrast to transformational approaches to leadership that ask others to become better versions of themselves. And it places certain responsibilities on us, each of us listening, thinking about this now, to be the best version, to tell the truth, to speak truth to power, to keep our promises, to forgive those who offend us, all of those moral or ethical behaviors require a certain kind of moral compass, as you alluded to it earlierulogy, in particular, was Walter Mondale, jimmy Carter’s former vice president.
Bishop Wright: 8:30
His son read Walter Mondale’s words, written some years ago, of his eulogy. He, Walter Mondale, through his son there at the funeral service, was saying to President Carter President Carter, we told the truth, we upheld the rule of law, and you got a sense that that was the goal. Those were the goals, that was the end zone, if you will. That was what they wanted to deliver. And now, look, we’re all cracked vessels and we all fall short of the glory of God. So this is not, you know, we’re not worshiping any human being, necessarily, but I think it is fair to talk about those sorts of what some people call old time kind of values. He wanted to tell the truth, he wanted to uphold the rule of law. And you know what’s interesting also and you talk about this in your book that moral leaders are students of the moral life and the just society. So moral leaders then become expressions of those very ideals that they’re immersed in.
Dr. Franklin: 9:52
That’s right. That’s right that embodiment of those values moves language and rhetoric to action and to example. And I think people are looking for examples as we move about and a lot of people worry are we losing moral leadership as a theme? Are there moral leaders around? And I try to point to the people who are emerging from the younger generations Malala Yousafzai, who became an advocate for girls’ education. Greta Thunberg, who’s bringing the issues of climate, justice and concern forward in some very powerful ways, again for a younger generation.
Dr. Franklin: 10:43
David Hogg focused and the two Justins from Tennessee focused on gun violence and more responsible use of weapons. So I think that those leaders are there and we even see them in the business community, but we really do need the tone at the top to help inspire an entire nation. That’s a power of what Martin King was doing every time he stood and challenged us. We need an invitation to raise our level of functioning and I think we were doing a pretty good job for the past few years and paying more attention to our environment and attention to the reducing child poverty in America, trying to be attentive to people who were devastated by COVID and acknowledging the inequitable impacts that the pandemic had. And suddenly there’s this flourishing of anti-inclusion. There’s this flourishing of anti-inclusion, equity, diversity, rhetoric and policy. What an awful statement of moral immaturity this is, that somehow being anti-woke is a noble position, when in fact it is, I think, short-sighted, self-centered and ultimately self-destructive.
Bishop Wright: 12:38
Well, you know, lots of good ideas and good words have been sort of negatively papered over, and it seems to me what you’re saying here, this idea of moral leadership is it’s someone who is other-centered. You know, there’s that wonderful quote from Dr King is that many a fool has remembered themselves into obscurity, but only one man he’s referring to Jesus here only one man forgot himself into eternity. You know, there is this other centeredness that takes the long view that ends up, you know, bringing health. I mean, we even see this.
Bishop Wright: 13:16
You know, in the Old Testament the idea of shalom and justice was supposed to, you know, just create well-being for the entire community, and it was one interaction at a time until you got to this cumulative covenant, keeping that put God and neighbor first, and then the cumulative benefit of all of that, of course, was a just and whole society. You know, I think and I’d love to get your thoughts on this that it’s really sort of intellectually lazy to make people either good or bad. You know, I sort of see that we’re in an uncertain world, lots of anxiety and fear everywhere, and it seems to me that it’s fear that sort of invites us down into the worst expressions of ourselves, and so we can’t be gracious of spirit to name the inequities that we benefited from, so we have to write it off and castigate it. Where’s fear in all this, doc?
Dr. Franklin: 14:30
Yeah, yeah, fear is one of those primal emotions aimed at the preservation and protection of the ego of the self, but it doesn’t take you very far when it comes to preserving and building a good community.
Dr. Franklin: 14:48
This is where fear must constantly be counteracted by altruism and I love your phrase about the generosity required to build a good community that we look out for people who are not able to do so for themselves, but we also actively seek the good of the other. This is one of the ways in which Aristotle writes about the beauty of friendship that a friend is not someone who’s trying to take advantage of you, to con you, to manipulate you, for her, his, their own utility or pleasure. But he talks about this form of friendship that elevates and says every day I get up, I’m thinking, of course, about myself, but how I’ll do and flourish, but I’m also thinking about the people around me. And certainly that’s what happens in a good friendship, a good marriage, relationships with all sorts of significant others. But it’s really and this is where we move toward altruism that active goodwill toward others, including strangers. That is not simply a matter of we have a direct connection to others. It’s thinking about strangers, it’s planting the trees that we will never enjoy, but the future generations will.
Bishop Wright: 16:12
That’s exactly right. You know, also, in your book you refer to this idea of moral leaders, frame issues as moral issues, and you know what we know right now is. You know we’re just days ahead of the inauguration and Dr King’s celebration, and they happen on the same days, you know, the January 20th. What a fascinating, striking intersection, right? And then we know, too, that there has been a lot said about immigration, and I happen to be one of those people who recognize what I call the middle way. We do need to secure the borders and at the same time, we need to treat people with dignity, while understanding that we have a labor shortage in this country, and so what we need is less rhetoric and more thoughtful policy. But how would one begin to frame immigration, let’s say, as a moral issue? Take a stab at that.
Dr. Franklin: 17:18
Yeah Well, the fundamental question and it’s the ancient question of all ethics and moral philosophy is what does it mean to be a good person? And secondly, what does it mean to establish a just community, a just society, society? And I think that as we think about building good community and just society, america has demonstrated to the rest of the world that an open embrace of others is far more economically beneficial than culturally enriching, and ultimately more aesthetic and beautiful than a xenophobic fear of all others who are not like us. Now, we all know there are countries, societies today, where there’s enormous homogeneity. Most people are of the same history and you know genotype and so on. They’re wonderful countries, but I find the embrace of diversity, difference, otherness, is a kind of enrichment of the host country. So there are all sorts of cases that may be made business case.
Dr. Franklin: 18:48
You’re asking about the moral case, and here again I think Martin King’s in his last book when Do we Go From here? The final chapter is titled the World House and in that final chapter and I sort of assign this to all my students King is writing about how we are indebted to all of the world. So we can’t pretend that. You know, the cup of coffee we received is actually put on the table by a South American. Or if you have cocoa from West African, or a cup of tea from China, the bar of soap in the bathroom is from Europe, and on and on. He paints this brilliant, just wonderful vision of our interdependence, even though we sit here in our homes and think well, I’m a self-contained, self-made person and so I think that’s a part of what you know immigration as a moral opportunity to embrace the world in a responsible way. I love your more pragmatic way of framing this. There’s a smart way to do this through policy, but ultimately it benefits us economically, intellectually and culturally.
Bishop Wright: 20:02
Yeah, you know we’ve talked about this idea at sort of a sort of high level the presidency maybe even policy. You framed it up really wonderfully for us. I think, intellectually you’re a dad, you and your wife are parents and I understand you also have the blessing of grandchildren. So what do you say to your beloved grandchildren about some or all of this? I mean, you want to leave them a better world, but you also want them to lean into the world that will be theirs, to lean into the world that will be theirs. And how do you say, as a wise grandpa, in age-appropriate ways, how you want your children to sort of take this baton and run forward thinking about goodness, thinking about being, just thinking about being other-centered and all that? What do you say to them?
Dr. Franklin: 21:03
being just thinking about being other-centered and all that, what do you say to them I think about Rabbi Hillel’s wonderful injunction that the world is equally balanced between good and evil. So your next act will tip the scale. The scale, and I want my grandchildren to appreciate the power of agency of their action, their choices, even down to the level of their consumer choices, and how they spend their dollars, their money, makes a difference in the overall project of repairing the world. That wonderful Jewish notion of tikkun olam, that we are called as moral people and spiritual agents to repair a broken world, and that’s my charge to them, that they have power. They can make a difference. Choices matter. Live aware of that, but also think about that interesting metaphor If there is a balance between the forces of good and evil and you are going to have your one vote, your one big action, ensure that it’s on the side of the good, the true, the right and the beautiful of the good, the true, the right and the beautiful.
Bishop Wright: 22:33
Last question, that’s wonderful, actually, and just that image. You know, what I like about that is that it helps understand. You know, Dr King did say you know, change doesn’t roll in on wheels of inevitability, right, and so we have agency, and so that, I think, is a, as a, as a grand child, you would hear that I have agency, that my choices do matter. In addition to being an intellectual, a former university president and now a professor, you’re also ordained in a couple of traditions, in a couple of traditions, and so, as we wrap up here, I wonder, as you think about moral leadership, I wonder what piece of scripture dances in your mind about this that calls to you, about this moral leadership that affirms it for you?
Dr. Franklin: 23:21
Yeah, wow, thank you.
Dr. Franklin: 23:22
That’s a wonderful pastoral question and I think the two points I’d make is remember, as we meditate on Martin Luther King through this season, that King was a Christian, but he learned so much of his spiritual wealth and intellectual capital Martin Luther King utilized was from a non-Christian, from a Hindu Gandhi, mahatma Gandhi and I think King demonstrates, in being authentically a mature Christian believer, he’s also able to learn from other great wisdom traditions, wisdom traditions.
Dr. Franklin: 24:08
So I hope everyone in this year in particular, where there’s so much fear of the other and so much xenophobia, make it a point to read something, listen to something from outside your tradition, but then return to your own tradition and explore it with new eyes, having visited across the street, as it were.
Dr. Franklin: 24:26
And that’s why I like your question and for me, in short, it would be this interesting passage in 2 Corinthians 5, where Paul is writing to the church 2 Corinthians 5, 17, and says if we are in Christ, we are new creatures, new creation and old things have passed. Old things are now new, New possibilities are before us, but bear in mind, we have been given the ministry of reconciliation. God has reconciled us, which is closing the gap between humans and the holy, between humans and the holy. And now your role is to is back to that notion of heal the land, repair creation, or my favorite three-word definition of what justice is about is restore right relationships. And that’s what I read. We are called to be restorers of right relationships as we undertake that Second Corinthians 5 challenge and invitation of being ministers of reconciliation.
Bishop Wright: 25:40
Wonderful, wonderful Thanks for joining us. Thank you for leading us out in this conversation around moral leadership for the next couple of weeks. Friends, the Reverend Dr Robert Franklin, thank you again,
Dr. Franklin: 25:55
Thank you, Bishop Wright.
