Sr. Ellis McCulloh: 0:00
What are those deep core values that we all have? We’re interdependent and we’re interconnected and that when we fail to see that connection, we fail to see each other as part of one family, as one community. It’s you know, no matter where we go, you know it could be the wealthiest city in the country, it could be the poorest city. You have people from every single economic status, and what do you need to make sure that your community is thriving?
Bishop Wright: 0:40
Hi everyone. This is Bishop Rob Wright and this is For People. Today, our guest is Sister Ellis McCulloh. She is a sister, a Catholic nun. She is a sister of the Humility of Mary. She holds a BA from Westminster College, an MA in Theology from John Carroll University and a JD from the University of Akron School of Law. Sister Eilish, welcome and good morning.
Sr. Ellis McCulloh: 1:09
Oh, thank you so much for having me. I’m so excited to be here.
Bishop Wright: 1:13
I am so excited. I don’t often meet Catholic nuns with a Juris Doctorate, so how cool is that.
Sr. Ellis McCulloh: 1:20
Oh, thank you. We are few and far between, I think.
Bishop Wright: 1:25
Wonderful to have you on. A little bit more about you. You’ve studied Spanish in Guatemala and ministered in Haiti. You spent more than 10 years ministering in refugee, resettlement and immigration services in Minnesota and Akron and Cleveland, and you’re now a part of the Network Lobby for Catholic Social Justice, and 501c3 is Catholic Advocates for Social Justice have.
Sr. Ellis McCulloh: 1:53
I got that right, correct.
Bishop Wright: 1:55
Okay, great, so tell me about that work.
Sr. Ellis McCulloh: 1:59
So, yeah. So at Network this year, we are in the midst of our nonpartisan yeah. So at Network this year, we are in the midst of our nonpartisan election work, education, work, and we’re really talking about you know, how do we vote our future, but really like, how do we make sure we have thriving communities for every single person? And what I really really like about that is it takes every person as an individual and it doesn’t say that my needs are better than your needs and the next person’s needs are better than someone else, and it’s looking at us as a whole and as a whole community. And so we’re traveling the country talking about it in different mediums, different places, having rallies, all different kinds of things.
Bishop Wright: 2:41
So it’s nonpartisan right, and so we’re not for any particular candidate, but you are for this country and all of her communities. Have I got that right? Exactly in how policies enacted by our government reflect your values? Right, and so, at the core, what’s the value that propels you into this work?
Sr. Ellis McCulloh: 3:12
So I think at the core is something that my grandmother really taught me and instilled in all of us and it is like just about loving everyone around us.
Sr. Ellis McCulloh: 3:22
You know, when I think about my grandmother, I think about how, you know, she knew everyone, she had a story about everyone and she was in relationship with everyone. And that, like human instinct, and that human value, is what propels me into my work in policy, into my work in what I did in refugee resettlement, and it’s what I see as like the core of what our country needs at this point in time.
Bishop Wright: 3:51
So, from grandma’s wisdom, how do you become a Catholic nun? Because there’s that one important step between the policy work and grandma’s wisdom. Tell me how you got to the nunnery. Is that what we even call it?
Sr. Ellis McCulloh: 4:07
Yeah, the convent. So you know it’s kind of a crazy long-winded story, but I had absolutely grew up Catholic, grew up Irish Catholic. You know we were very culturally Catholic, I think, in my family and I grew up in Youngstown Ohio.
Bishop Wright: 4:26
Yeah.
Sr. Ellis McCulloh: 4:27
And so Youngstown is a former steel town. It’s a real tight-knit community. And when I went away to college, I went to Westminster College and that was kind of my first time that I was around people of other faiths like on a regular basis and really, really learned from them. I was at Presbyterian school and I graduated from there and all I knew when I graduated from college was that I wanted to be with the people, but I had absolutely no idea what that meant. And I graduated with this degree in English and I was like, oh, I graduated with this degree in English and I was like, oh, maybe I’ll tell stories, you know, who knows?
Sr. Ellis McCulloh: 5:10
And kind of by chance, I ended up going on a young adult retreat with the Sisters of the Humility of Mary that my aunt, who had worked for the community, was like, just go Like. And there was something about the sisters that I was like, oh, they’re kind of cool, Like. And there was something about the sisters that I was like, oh, they’re, they’re kind of cool, they’re doing like the stuff that I want to do. But I was like, you know, absolutely not. That is crazy. You know, this is probably about 20 or 2008. And I was like. No one becomes a nun.
Sr. Ellis McCulloh: 5:37
This is not a thing that people do, but it was like their witness. A lot of them were at the School of the Americas for the protests at Fort Benning and they did like this amazing, like social justice work and they lived out Catholicism in a way that I had never seen before in my life and there was something about that that spoke to me. And so it took a couple of years, a lot of nagging, probably a lot of prayers from a lot of people. And you know my grandmother, who during that time had gotten really sick and went home to God, but she was talking to one of the sisters in my community and she was like just watch out for Eilish, just watch out for Eilish. So I think it was kind of the combination of all of that and that I was like I really want to be a part of a community that does good, and so I was like I’ll try it out. And here I am, 10 years later, still here.
Bishop Wright: 6:40
And here you are and embodying a witness for Jesus Christ in a particular way. You know, that’s what I find fascinating. You know, sometimes we think that, you know, we make Jesus apolitical. Right Now, jesus is political but not partisan. That’s an important distinction. But you know. But what I have loved about? So I grew up in a Catholic. I mean, I was born in a Catholic orphanage right, and I grew up with a mother who was an organist in an African-American Catholic church in Pittsburgh, pennsylvania.
Sr. Ellis McCulloh: 7:13
Oh, there you go.
Bishop Wright: 7:14
Our mother’s house is right down the road there you go Very much the steel town. So I have never really understood, you know, christianity. That is exclusively personal piety To me. You know, worshiping on Sunday was supposed to, you know, expel you into the world, to make the world look more like heaven and less like hell. Right, and there’s lots of places to do that.
Bishop Wright: 7:43
But you are in advocacy and what really brought you to my attention was is that, of all the stuff I’ve been reading over the last series of months now about Christian nationalism, you and your work was the clearest about why Project 2025 is 2025 is we’ll pause this here a second why Project 2025 is perpendicular to the gospel, why it is neither Christian and it’s a bad if it is Christian nationalism. It’s both bad Christianity and bad nationalism. So you say a little bit about this. I mean your words. You say Project 2025 is an extremist plan designed to privilege a small white, wealthy ruling class and their corporate interests while burdening everyone else. Big statement. You go on to say the result would be a society in which millions of us, our families and our communities would face economic hardships and barriers to democratic participation. Now let’s hear that. Back that up. Why is 2025 somehow against Jesus of Nazareth? Help us know.
Sr. Ellis McCulloh: 8:58
For me it goes back to Matthew 25 and that Sermon on the Mount Mount and it’s you know, whenever people are hungry, you feed them. You know whatever the needs are, you are there to meet those needs. And when we look at project 25, it is like saying no, we should not help those in need, we should not have social safety nets, we should not have programs that value people as individuals, that value everyone’s human dignity. And it slashes right at that. You take the ability of a huge swath of the United States. You take away their ability to participate in the daily life of the United States, to participate in the democratic process, which is what, at Network, we’re talking about right now. But you’re taking away their right to live, you know, and to care for themselves and to care for their families.
Bishop Wright: 10:06
That’s a big statement and you know we have friends who are red and friends who are blue. What do you say to those people who say that policy like 2025 is moving us towards more responsibility among people, sort of at the middle and bottom tier of things?
Sr. Ellis McCulloh: 10:26
Yeah, you know, what I often talk about with people who say things like that is that you know what are those deep core values that we all have. We all want to make sure that we’re caring for our families that basic, basic level, and then move into the conversation as people are ready, because so often it’s saying like maybe you know, I, my family, you know, we hear the whole pick them up from the bootstraps mantra you know, that’s what my family did.
Bishop Wright: 11:05
Yeah.
Sr. Ellis McCulloh: 11:06
And it’s like how do you? Yes, you did that, but who along the way was able to help your family? Maybe it wasn’t a program like WIC or something. Maybe it was your aunt and uncle, you know, who knows what it was. Maybe it was your church family. But, like, we all have that basic desire to have to have what we need to care for each other and if we can begin to see I think, really see each other as brothers and sisters, to move away from that horrific divisiveness that pervades our country right now, we can begin to have those hard conversations.
Sr. Ellis McCulloh: 12:18
Oh, I like that yeah.
Bishop Wright: 12:19
Right. And so when we read Jesus in Matthew 25, he’s really establishing a floor height. We call it the social gospel, we call it lots of different things, but he’s really saying, look, if we’re going to be, if you’re going to be followers of me, then we’ve got to feed the poor, help the sick, visit and console prisoners. So he’s establishing a social floor height, he’s establishing a really robust sense of neighborliness. And so am I right, am I hearing you right when I hear you talk about, you know, interdependency, right?
Sr. Ellis McCulloh: 12:52
Am I hearing you right? Correct, correct and I think this is we always talk about when we do all of our trainings across the country is that we’re interdependent and we’re interconnected and that when we fail to see that connection, that interconnectedness, that we are dependent on one another, we fail to see each other as part of one family, as one community, no matter where we go. It could be the wealthiest city in the country, it could be the poorest city. You have people from every single economic status, you have people from all different backgrounds, and what do you need to make sure that your community is thriving? How do you have that live out of that level playing field?
Bishop Wright: 13:44
Is your network, I mean so, if we’re not for 2025, is there something in Catholic social teaching? Or you know that your organization is putting out that is the counter Something, because I think that there’s a lot of people of really goodwill and they’re wondering okay, if not that, then what? Like, specifically, like you know, what would we like to see either of the candidates really latch on to so that America does become great, is great in particular ways? So is there a plan that you guys are working on?
Sr. Ellis McCulloh: 14:21
Yeah, so right now we are.
Sr. Ellis McCulloh: 14:23
Our plan is called our vote, our future plan, or vote our future campaign, where everyone thrives, no exceptions. But at the heart of it, and what you see in our Project 25 resource is what we call our equally sacred multi-issue voter checklist, and at the heart of that it says that we’re a Catholic organization, so we speak from that lens. But we say Catholics and all people of goodwill we call our faith-filled advocates across the country, are called to be multi-issue voters, are called to look at that big picture and to educate themselves on that. So we often quote Pope Francis, who said that we cannot uphold an ideal of holiness that would ignore injustice in the world. And so we talk about all these things. We talk about things like the freedom from harm, the freedom to care for ourselves and our families, the freedom to live on a healthy planet, and a few others as things that everyone should have the freedom to live into. And so we’re using that kind of as our opposition to Project 25, but as a way to explain how we envision a world where everyone thrives.
Bishop Wright: 15:45
Yeah, pope Francis, who you know, especially as I read him, sounds more and more like an Episcopalian. I think I’m going to go to Rome and claim to him. But no, I’ve really appreciated his witness and you know, he’s sort of ruffled the feathers on everybody’s side from time to time, just depends on you know the day. And now he’s basically said that both candidates here have troublesome qualities and that Americans are really faced with the choice of the lesser of two evils. I think that’s a fair paraphrase. And now you’re talking about not being one issue right, which I happen to actually agree with. But we know that this notion of pro-life, which has been heralded and championed, really, by the Catholic Church, looms large for voters. And so what do you, as a Catholic nun, given Orthodox Catholic teaching, have to say about that?
Sr. Ellis McCulloh: 16:50
Yeah, I think I really honestly go back to what Pope Francis said in his piece Joy of the Gospel, gaudete and Exsultate my Latin is horrific, yeah, but I read it.
Bishop Wright: 17:03
It’s really good.
Sr. Ellis McCulloh: 17:05
Okay, so he talks about abortion and euthanasia. And then he said, in that same exact paragraph, talks about abortion and euthanasia. And then he said, in that same exact paragraph it’s paragraphs 101 and 102, he says, but equally sacred to these issues. And he goes on to list human trafficking. You know, different human needs issues. And it’s like it’s saying that you know, yes, we have, you know, pro-life, we have this stance, there’s a stance on abortion, but it’s a much bigger picture than that. It is what does it really mean to be pro-life? And at Network, that’s not one of the issues that we work directly on at all, because it tends to be a state issue and we do federal policy. But after the Dobbs decision, we put out a statement and we said, okay, this has now happened.
Sr. Ellis McCulloh: 18:02
Now, what about the children? What about the mothers? How are we making sure that all of these needs are met through policy, through legislation? So it’s talking about making sure that kids have enough food to eat at home, that they have safe housing. You know, in so many of our cities across the country, the houses are filled with lead paint. There’s, you know, undrinkable water. You know, how are we making those also huge concerns to make sure those are addressed so that kids have what they need. You know I think we often talk about making you know kids are the future, this next generation coming up, the generation behind them. How do we make sure they have what they need to flourish, to live, as my community says, to live abundant life?
Bishop Wright: 18:51
flourish to live, as my community says, to live abundant life. Right, yeah, no, I appreciate that and I appreciate, you know, I appreciate the consistency of Catholic social teaching and even when they’ve gotten to sort of a choke point, you know the impetus to grow. So we’ve had Sister Helen Prejean on the podcast. She is a pistol man, I mean. I just love her.
Sr. Ellis McCulloh: 19:17
I tell you what?
Bishop Wright: 19:20
And as you know, you know the death penalty day, national Death Penalty Day is coming up. World Against Death Penalty is coming up. And, of course, because of her advocacy and her outspokenness was able to change Catholic social teaching right To broaden life to not only pro-birth but also a really radical stand against, you know, capital punishment, which is, as far as I’m concerned, is a state-sanctioned mob violence. And so you know, it’s been great to just sort of enjoy watching other brothers and sisters from other denominations. You know, try to do this really important work. I call it the work of witness, right? What we’re trying to say to the world is that there’s something about this Jesus that pushes me into relationship with all kinds of people for their benefit. And here’s the good thing as I work to benefit their lives, somehow my life experiences real benefit. I mean, this is this wonderful thing about God, right, you think you’re pouring out and God’s pouring in as you’re pouring out. I mean that ends up being the spiritual principle.
Bishop Wright: 20:31
So, as we’re coming to the end here, I would be remiss if I let you get off of this podcast. So we have lots of as is true for the Catholic Church, lots of women in church, and so people might hear you and say, wow, this is a bright woman, committed woman, progressive woman. Hear you and say, wow, this is a bright woman, committed woman, progressive woman, how is it that she becomes a nun, you know, in a religious structure that won’t allow women to be sort of ordained, how do you work through that? You know, I come at it not from a sort of condemnatory or disparaging way, but I’m just, I think, make that case for some folks.
Sr. Ellis McCulloh: 21:10
You know that’s an excellent, excellent question and I think it’s something that’s, you know, it’s very much talked about, especially now with the synod going on in the Catholic, in the global Catholic church. And you know, for me, at the heart of it is where I’m called. You know, I have many friends, women who have, who have left the church because they have been called to ordination, and you know, and, and how do we, you know, wrestle, you know, in a church that I, through all of its faults, I love deeply, I love my Catholic faith deeply, you know, and, and it’s, and, for me I think I come at it from a, from a personal stance is I as someone who is not called to ordination? You know, so, for me, it is about all of us at that table, um, that we are called to be church in the world.
Sr. Ellis McCulloh: 22:15
You know, we are called to minister in the world, whether we are ordained, whether we are religious, whether we’re Catholic or don’t have faith at all. It is how are we living and breathing as church in the world? How are we bringing people to what I say, the goodness of God, you know, and to move in some ways beyond, I guess, structures that may enclose us into seeing God in church as one way, but seeing it as this expansive world. And so I think you know, in terms of being in a church, a faith tradition that does not ordain women to ordained ministry, ministry, whether the diaconate or priesthood, you know it’s, it’s saying like I fully honor and recognize my, my friends, who women, who are called to ordination and who have left, and I know at the core of me, that is not where I am called and I, you know, as a person, you know, I think being true to your call is at the heart of it and that’s something that we are all, all have to grapple with and see how it kind of plays out.
Bishop Wright: 23:39
Well, I can tell you this I listen to people and watch people, and you know, what is always a clear bell for me is seeing the expression on people’s face as they talk about the depths of their work and response to Jesus Christ, and so it seems like you are called to this work indeed, and so we are grateful that you are advocating on behalf of a fairer, cleaner, more democratic America, which is good for everybody. So thank you for your witness.
Sr. Ellis McCulloh: 24:15
Thank you very much. Thank you for having me. This was great.
Bishop Wright: 24:18
Sister Ellis McCulloh. Thank you very much. God bless you and keep up the wonderful work.
