Bishop Eaton: 0:01
In John, chapter 10, jesus said he came to bring life, that we might have it, and have it abundantly, abundant life. And so it is the call of the church and all of its members, in all of our denominations, really to make sure that those who are most often forgotten or marginalized, that they have a voice, but also hungry people are fed and people in Matthew 25 is very important to us.
Bishop Wright: 0:40
Hi everyone. This is Bishop Rob Wright and today we have a special guest. We are with Presiding Bishop Elizabeth Amy Eaton of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. Presiding Bishop, welcome, thank you. Glad to be here, bishop. A little bit about you. She holds a bachelor’s from the College of Worcester in music education and then drawn to ministry, attended the Harvard Divinity School and earned a Master of Divinity. She is the fourth presiding bishop of the ELCA Evangelical Lutheran Church in America and the first woman elected in 2013 and then reelected in 2019. So, presiding Bishop, give us a sense of the ELCA church. You know where is she? Where is she concentrated? What are her ministries? Tell us something about it.
Bishop Eaton: 1:34
Certainly so. There are about 3 million of us in about almost 9,000 congregations. We cover the entire United States, the Caribbean and we’ve got one congregation in Canada. I don’t know how that happened, but we have one up there Obviously or wouldn’t be. Obviously for Lutherans it is. But we have a large immigrant population that came, starting with Germans even in the 18th century, but people from the Nordic countries. So we have a big concentration in the Twin Cities, but in the Dakotas go to Minnesota, wisconsin, over to Indiana and Ohio. One of our colleagues calls it the Fertile Crescent of Lutheranism.
Bishop Wright: 2:20
But we’re all over the country and what would you say would be the hallmarks of your tradition.
Bishop Eaton: 2:28
Well, let me see Starting in 1517.
Bishop Eaton: 2:32
No, I won’t we joke about this, but seriously, Luther’s recovery of the understanding that grace is a free gift from God and that’s what puts us back in right relationship with God. And because we are already in right relationship with God and don’t have to work to do that, we’re free to serve the neighbor and to be in right relationship with each other and with creation. So that justification by grace is. I think almost all of our people can say that. For our branch of the Lutheran family here in the US, some would characterize us as being maybe more liberal than some of the other branches of Lutheranism. That’s probably true, but standing up against the culture, we probably don’t seem to be as liberal as people would make us out to be.
Bishop Wright: 3:22
Well, I appreciate that. Let me also say I should have said this earlier. Let me also say you are sort of Ohio and Cleveland kind of gal. Is that right? Absolutely. And I’m born and raised in Pittsburgh. So the fact that perhaps a Browns fan growing up and a Pittsburgh Steelers fan growing up and having a very civil conversation is a testimony to the love of Jesus Christ.
Bishop Eaton: 3:46
Exactly, and isn’t ecumenism great?
Bishop Wright: 3:50
Well, let’s say something about that right now. So ecumenism, right, the different branches of Christianity, different expressions of Christianity, finding common work and common purpose. I know that’s been a theme of your work. Say a little bit more about why that’s important for you.
Bishop Eaton: 4:09
Well, jesus sort of made the point in John chapter 17.
Bishop Eaton: 4:14
Well, jesus didn’t know, it was John chapter 17, but he made the point that it was God’s will that we all be one, as Jesus and God the Father were one, so that the world might believe. And I think it is somewhat confusing, and maybe I’d go even so far as to say that it’s a scandal that we have I think I don’t know how many thousands of denominations in the United States. But then we, along with the Episcopal Church, we’re in full communion with each other and we have six other full communion partners, which doesn’t mean we’ve given up our history, our heritage, maybe even our certain take or understanding or interpretation of the gospel, but we see enough of the church and each other that we work together. So we share. I can share priests from your tradition and we send pastors over to yours. There’s an orderly exchange of clergy, so don’t worry that we’re doing crazy things together, but I think that’s just helpful and important with us.
Bishop Wright: 5:15
Well, that’s it, that’s my big word this year is witness. Out of Acts, the first chapter, I mean, the power came to us at Jesus’ ascension to be witnesses. Right, he promised that we would get that power, and that power came mightily in Pentecost, but it was to be first and foremost witnesses. And so when we work together across these historic boundaries or disagreements about doctrine, you know, I think it makes a difference to the world. I mean because if we can’t get along, what do we have to say to the world?
Bishop Eaton: 5:46
Exactly, and, as it happens, today in our building here in Chicago, the Lutheran Episcopal Coordinating Committee is meeting, and one of your bishops, in fact, the bishop from Indiana, is here with us. But I made the point too we live in a world that I think gets for lack of a better phrase they really get jazzed up on divisions and just being. You know, you hang out with your own tribe and just no idea that we could cooperate, and so I said that their work, in particular today, is so important. In the Lutheran World Federation, we understand and actually we got this from the Vatican that we have unity and reconciled diversity. So it is possible and necessary, and I think it is a good witness for the church to say, no, it’s possible, we can get along, and not only get along but, as you said, give a clear witness to the freedom we have in the gospel, as well as be active in the world.
Bishop Eaton: 6:47
A lot of diaconal work we do together Lutherans and Episcopalians and other denominations and we’ve branched out I’m sure your church has as well to work with Islamic relief in this country. We work with our Jewish partners and we had a signing in 2016 with the Roman Catholic Worldwide Relief thing. So we, the Lutheran World Federation, cooperate with them and, if you think about it, if people are hungry or if they’re in refugee camps, they really don’t care.
Bishop Wright: 7:19
Who’s about the differences? No, neither should they. Right, I mean, it’s about the delivery of service in response to the love we received. Right and so that whole thing about who God is and who my neighbor is and how that meets at the cross. You know, and also I should say this is not just professional for you, this is personal, because you’re married to an Episcopal priest. Have I got that right?
Bishop Eaton: 7:41
I am married to an Episcopal priest. We’ve been married for 40 years and he is still an Episcopal priest and I’m still a Lutheran pastor. So look at that, we call it a mixed marriage. Because he’s from Cincinnati, so he’s a Bengals fan and I’m a.
Bishop Wright: 7:54
Browns fan. Oh my God, you are an icon of reconciliation here. There you go. And so what’s the work right now that you’re doing? I mean you talked about a vast real mission field that you are sort of overseeing, with many ministry partners lay and ordained. So what’s urgent? What are you working on right now? I mean it’s America, but it’s beyond America, so how do you focus yourselves? I mean, the needs are so many.
Bishop Eaton: 8:25
Truly, the needs are so many, and Jesus had something to say about that when one of the disciples was upset about the waste of money. That doesn’t mean we get to stop or we can stop. In John, chapter 10, jesus said he came to bring life, that we might have it, and have it abundantly, abundant life. And so it is the call of the church and all of its members, in all of our denominations, really to make sure that those who are most often forgotten or marginalized, that they have a voice, but also hungry people are fed, and people in Matthew 25 is very important to us. What we’re working on now, though, in particular in this season, is trying to get people to vote, helping people to understand that voting is actually a spiritual act, and it’s an act, it’s a faithful way to be a Christian.
Bishop Eaton: 9:21
Lutherans have long been accused of being quietists, that perhaps we withdrew from the public square, which was never Martin Luther’s intent and it’s certainly not the intent in all of scripture, and so to get our folks out to vote and not to vote about you know which side you want to win, but what do you? In discernment and understanding scripture, our confessions, what is the best for all people? And so that’s what work we’re doing right now, which is difficult because it’s so partisan. We’re not partisan. We’re political, our churches, both of us, but we’re not partisan.
Bishop Wright: 10:26
political. Oh my In that Jesus cared about people and he cared about people, he cared about power, he cared about decision making for the benefit of all people. These are political acts and we don’t want, neither does the Bible say anything about, an apolitical Jesus. What I have found is that we want an apolitical Jesus because we are afraid to have those tough conversations, but Jesus was pretty brave in those spaces.
Bishop Eaton: 10:49
Oh yes, it cost him his life. It cost him his life. He ended up also redeeming us, but yeah, yes, yes.
Bishop Wright: 10:55
Well, I mean we don’t kill people who are no political threat, right? I mean he was an intense political threat, religious and political threat. So then how do we thread this needle? Because I like what you’re saying here. So you’re encouraging people to vote, and that’s great. And yet you know, I’m sure in your denomination and right there in Chicago, you’ve got folks who are on either side of the issues. Is there more that you say to them other than Jesus is political and you ought to vote?
Bishop Eaton: 11:24
Well, yes, and it comes as a surprise and I’m sure you’ve heard this as well, bishop that we just you know, bishop, why are you so political in your messages etc. And what about the separation of church and state, which that is not in the Constitution, nor is it in the First Amendment. And in our own heritage, luther was pretty sure that it was the job of the church to speak to the state and also it was the job of the state to provide for the people. In that time it would be the prince, he said. The prince’s coat of arms should be loaves of bread. That’s, that’s the responsibility of that. And then, not speaking in the public square, no, there’s.
Bishop Eaton: 12:03
We have an understanding of two kingdoms or two ways that god rules the world, and and we say that government, good government, is a gift from God. And when we pray the fourth petition of the Lord’s Prayer, give us this day our daily bread. Luther includes everything that we need, including good government. So that’s important. And then people, when they say you know separation of church and state, my guess is, in many of their sanctuaries they’ve got an American flag right up front, sometimes inside the communion rail. That’s right and that’s like okay, but that’s somehow all right, but not speaking from the gospel, when Jesus is very clearly saying, and all through the Hebrew scriptures, where we’re to welcome the stranger and take care of the widow and the orphan. So I tell our people, we’ve got a long heritage, over 500 years, of being active in the public square. That’s where we’re called to be, because we are members of this community, this world we’re in, and it is part of our faithful response as Lutheran Christians to vote and be involved.
Bishop Wright: 13:04
I couldn’t say it better than that, you know, and I also think about this other part of this. All of that, yes, than that, you know, and I also think about this other part of this. All of that, yes. And there are men and women who risk their lives to secure the right to vote, and you know, I think a lot about, you know, that great cloud of witnesses who went before us. You are a female presiding bishop, so those women in the suffrage movement who found their voice and found allies and mobilized and got that done you know me as an African-American those people who literally faced down dogs and fire hoses, et cetera, et cetera, to just to begin to enjoy the privileges that were already theirs by virtue of their birth. And so I feel like it’s certainly spiritual and certainly in keeping with our tradition, and it also honors those who’ve gone before us. I have five adult children. I know you’re a mom of two adult young ladies.
Bishop Eaton: 14:10
And three grandchildren.
Bishop Wright: 14:12
Oh, let me tell you there it is she said that Guys, you should see the smile she has on her face right now when she’s talking about the grands, and so even more poignant than the grands. So what world do we want? And so what do you say to people who get really cynical? I mean, I talk to young adults, and I think young adults in particular are using words like it’s all rigged, it doesn’t matter who cares, you know, and I find that when they say those sort of things, some of the ones I know are also doing their level best to help other people. So it’s just that they’re disaffected politically, they don’t make the connection between good government and being better neighbors. And so what do you say to folks like that?
Bishop Eaton: 14:53
Well, we’ve had this conversation even in our extended family and I guess they’re millennials, the Gen Zers. We don’t have any Gen Zs, they’re either too young or too old. But they said what’s the point of voting? And this was in particular when President Biden was still a potential candidate for the Democratic Party. So what’s the point? And I say one thing that you said, because people have died, that we might have the right to exercise our franchise, but also, it does matter, because you might not think it’s great between whatever the candidates are, but they appoint judges, they appoint federal judges. There are generations of impact depending upon votes that we take now. And if we don’t take them and we don’t like what happens, then we really don’t have a right to say much. But it’s not just the vote for the top of the ticket, it has impact throughout society. So, yes, we should vote.
Bishop Wright: 15:49
There’s no doubt about it. I think you know what’s also. You know, as I listen closely to both sides of the political argument, and I encourage our folks here in middle and north Georgia to vote and exercise their right and privilege. You know, what’s also a sort of a Christian word but has fallen out of political parlance, is poverty Right. And so you talked about Matthew 25, which is to take care of. Jesus said to take care of the stranger, to take care of those who are naked, take care of those who are hungry and even visit those who are incarcerated. It seems like we talk a lot about the middle class and I understand that that’s the voting bloc, that’s the base, but we don’t talk very much about the poor, and I think that’s one of the ways that we can witness to the political process is to keep the poor, you know, in front of us and those people who are really on the edges of things, black and white, urban and rural. I mean, you know they are our neighbors as well.
Bishop Eaton: 16:46
No, I agree with that and I like that point. I hadn’t considered it that we have a responsibility to those citizens as well, or those who are not yet citizens. We have a responsibility, yep.
Bishop Wright: 16:58
Yeah, and it’s clear it’s very much on Jesus’s mind. And so let’s be political in that we advocate. Let’s be political and Christian in that we advocate for the poor, for their rights, health rights. We look at medical bankruptcy is rampant. I don’t know Chicago, I know Atlanta, I know Georgia it’s rampant. People are choosing between rent or medicine.
Bishop Wright: 17:27
Food or medicine. And, as I like to say, if people want to bang the drum and say, hey, we’re a great nation, I say okay, okay, now let’s measure some of that, right? It can’t just be all sentiment, right. Let’s measure that by our health outcomes for our young people and you know, and on and on and on. And so, yeah, we’re charged with this message, you and I with these purple shirts on, and to keep that message alive. And so what’s it like to sort of keep this kind of steadfast commitment to all of these issues, as well as all of the heady administrative issues? What’s that like, as you are the first female presiding bishop, what’s that been like for you?
Bishop Eaton: 18:12
Mostly it’s been good. It’s been uneven. There are some people, even in the Lutheran family, who won’t recognize that I’m ordained. I got more respect from the Swiss guards in the Vatican than I have from some of my.
Bishop Wright: 18:24
Lutheran family here.
Bishop Eaton: 18:27
So there’s that, but I mean I can deal with that. That’s not the problem. I said, I think what you’re saying or asking about how do we avoid cynicism or giving up or keep, how do we keep going when sometimes this just seems intractable?
Bishop Wright: 18:44
Yeah, and how does that connect to you? Yeah, that’s exactly right. It helps you connect to your personal story.
Bishop Eaton: 19:03
All the time, and so I think what I’ve always told my pastors when I was a synod that would be like a diocesan bishop is that you have to have a clear sense that you have been called to this ministry by God and that you’re sustained by the Holy Spirit, because it’s never going to get you through an all night lock in with the human teenagers or endless committee meetings or the church fights that happen.
Bishop Eaton: 19:12
And I have to remind myself that as well, because some days it’s like we’re just not making any progress. Our church, when we were this iteration of it, came together in 1987. And we said, oh gosh, we’re going to be within 10 years we’ll be 10% people of color or whose primary language is other than English and we don’t mean German or Scandinavian languages and we haven’t achieved it yet now in almost 40 years. So it gets wearing, but God wins in the end and God’s will is that people should have abundant life and no matter how tired we get, god has called us into this ministry. So I have to trust that when I can’t see that I’m not moving the needle.
Bishop Wright: 20:01
You know, we have had our very first female presiding bishop was Catherine Jeffords Sure, as you well know her.
Bishop Eaton: 20:07
I know, her.
Bishop Wright: 20:09
Yeah, and I saw you know, all manners of grace and grotesque behavior all simultaneously and I and I think she embodied at least for me she embodied what you just said. I mean there was a clarity, a I saw in her measured speech and her always appropriate tone just a real commitment to not get distracted by the silliness and, if we’re honest, sometimes the church can get real silly.
Bishop Eaton: 20:46
Oh, there’s a lot of foolishness, absolutely yeah.
Bishop Wright: 20:49
Yeah, yeah, and so it’s. You know, what you’re talking about is the clarity of purpose. Right, so I’m called. What I like to say to people is is that, you know, I like to haveitudes of things, and so what do you say to lay people about that very point who don’t have this reassurance that comes through ordination for us? What do you say to the baptized, who make up the majority of our churches?
Bishop Eaton: 21:27
Well, I don’t know if ordination brings reassurance but I would say, a sense of call does, and this is part of our tradition too as Lutheran Christians the priesthood of all believers, and in baptism I’ll go out on a heresy limb here, but in baptism we’ve all received our ordination in the sense that we’ve been anointed by the Spirit and called to be witnesses to the good news. And it doesn’t and Luther is really clear. It’s not even the best to have the clergy do it, that it’s maybe far more effective and faithful. He was talking about cobblers and that sort of thing, but he said you know, it’s absolutely faithful and a call from God and high as any pope or bishop if you’re changing your baby’s diaper. He used a little more earthy language, but that’s true and that’s what we understand.
Bishop Eaton: 22:20
Yeah, it’s not. I think in some ways, even we, with our big Reformation heritage, we forget that it’s not our church and if you don’t have a sense of call, whether you’re early or ordained, you can’t manage in this. And also we need to remember and I have to tell myself this that it’s God’s church and not ours, and that Christ is the head and the spirit is still blowing.
Bishop Wright: 22:45
Yeah, yeah, I get there through William Temple, one of our great thinkers and Archbishop of Canterbury, who says the church is that organization that exists for people who are not presently its members. And that’s what helps me to not get stuck in all the bureaucracy of the organization, which is that there are people who need to know something of Christ’s love in community that have yet to walk across the threshold of those buildings or even to encounter our ministry or some of us, and that’s our good and highest purpose really is to facilitate their relationship with Jesus Christ. Well, you’re an absolute delight Presiding Bishop, and I just want to say thank you to you for making time and being with us. How can we pray for you?
Bishop Eaton: 23:33
Well, for me and for my church, we’ll have a we call it an assembly, you call it a general convention next summer in 25. We know there’ll be a lot of transitions in our church, in leadership. So I guess, just pray that we stay the course and that also, that it’s the cross that’s at the center and not any of us, and pray for the Browns. If you could pray for the Browns.
Bishop Wright: 24:04
Well, now that’s a bridge too far, presiding Bishop, but be assured of my prayers for you and for the church. Thank you, bishop. Presiding Bishop Eaton, god bless you Thank you, god bless you.
