Rep. Talarico: 0:00
In my view, this has been a problem in our religion since Constantine. You know, 300 years after that carpenter was crucified by the Roman Empire. Powerful people, they try to use religion for the poor and the oppressed for their own purposes. Christian nationalism as just the latest iteration of the powers that be trying to tame and domesticate Christianity. This is For People with Bishop Rob Wright.
Bishop Wright: 0:40
Hi everyone, this is Bishop Rob Wright and this is For People. Today, in the third installment of our series on Christian nationalism, we are just delighted to welcome Representative James Talarico, Texas House Representative of the 52nd District. Representative Tallarico, welcome. He is born just north of Austin, in Round Rock, texas. He is a graduate of the University of Texas at Austin and he has a Master of Arts degree in Education Policy from Harvard, and he is presently pursuing a Master of Divinity degree at Austin Presbyterian Theological Seminary.
Bishop Wright: 1:27
Why I’ve asked Representative Talarico to join us is because of this phenomenal sermon that he has preached and that has gone completely viral. When people learned that I wanted to talk about Christian nationalism, I got a wonderful list of books that I needed to read, but this video of James Talarico standing in a congregation very much like our congregations and just telling out his heart about the gospel and why Christian nationalism isn’t Christian was just absolutely arresting and compelling, so I wanted to have him on. So, Representative Talarico, tell me of all the things that a Texas politician could be doing right now with his or her time. Why did you feel like this was important to single out as an issue and to deliver as a sermon.
Rep. Talarico: 2:16
Well, thank you first for your kind words. As I mentioned to you earlier, I’m still just a seminarian, so for you to say that about one of my first sermons means a lot to me. I’m a little intimidated to be talking about the craft of preaching with someone like you, but it is a true honor. Well, the reason I spoke about it at church is because I’m dealing with it in my day job at the Texas Capitol. As you mentioned, I serve as a state representative here in Central Texas and unfortunately we’ve seen Christian nationalism rear its ugly head here in Texas over the last couple of years.
Rep. Talarico: 2:57
There was a bill to force every teacher in the state of Texas to post the Ten Commandments in their public school classrooms. There was a bill to replace school counselors with untrained, unqualified religious chaplains. There was a bill to defund public schools to subsidize private Christian schools and most recently there was a bill to teach Bible stories as historical fact to elementary school students. So this is a very real live situation here in Texas and I felt the need to not only address it politically here at the state capitol, which I’ve done on the House floor, but also address it theologically, and I felt the best place to do. That was my home church.
Bishop Wright: 3:48
Now that’s wonderful. You know, you and I think I and a few other scholars that we’ve had on really sort of zero in on this point that what we’re understanding and what’s becoming popularly sort of named Christian nationalism, has very little to do with the Jesus of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Is that where you are, and if so, tell me a little bit about that.
Rep. Talarico: 4:15
That’s exactly right, and I also you know this term, christian nationalism is new for a lot of folks and it’s become a lot more popular in our national discourse. But you know, in my view, this has been a problem in our religion since Constantine. You know, 300 years after that carpenter was crucified by the Roman Empire. So this has been a struggle within Christianity really since the beginning, and it takes different forms and it has different names and there are different figures. But powerful people, whether it’s emperors or presidential candidates or megachurch pastors, they try to use this wild, undomesticated religion for the poor and the oppressed for their own purposes, to consolidate their own wealth and power. And so I, in my view, I see Christian nationalism as just the latest iteration of the powers that be trying to tame and domesticate Christianity trying to tame and domesticate Christianity. And so there have been Christians since Constantine who have resisted those efforts, and I think it’s our obligation as Christians to stand up for the gospel against those who are trying to pervert it and those trying to subvert our democracy.
Bishop Wright: 5:47
So let me ask you this question. So you are a person who is a follower of Jesus. You’ve made that public and more than that, heading into seminary now. In fact, before you got on the podcast today, you were in a class, seminary class. So you’re a Christian, I’m a Christian. What’s wrong, Tell me? What’s wrong with having the Ten Commandments on display? Or what’s wrong with Christian schools? Shouldn’t Christians want some of all of this stuff?
Rep. Talarico: 6:18
Yeah, it’s a great question. I also think we should try to enter into these conversations with as much empathy and love as possible for our neighbors who may disagree with our current position. I don’t think we should take for granted that folks know why this is contradictory to the gospel, or at least why it’s contradictory in our view, and so I appreciate that question. Here’s how I come at it. Before I was a politician, I was a public school teacher. I taught on the west side of San Antonio, which is a beautiful, historic Mexican-American neighborhood here in the state of Texas. So whenever I’m dealing with these education policy questions, I always think about my students first. They are the lens through which I evaluate public policy proposals that come through the Capitol. I had students who didn’t belong to a particular faith tradition. I had students who were Hindu, buddhist, muslim, jewish, sikh.
Rep. Talarico: 7:45
Texas, as you know, bishop, is one of the most diverse states in the country, and so you know, when this bill came forward to force every teacher to display the Ten Commandments, I immediately thought of the students who don’t belong to the Judeo-Christian tradition. I immediately thought of the students who already stick out right. I mean, when you’re a Jewish kid or a Hindu kid or a Buddhist kid in a Texas public school. It’s hard enough to be different, and this was, in my opinion as an educator was going to make their lives even harder, because now they have one religion being preached at the front of the class or being posted on the walls of that classroom that isn’t their own and doesn’t reflect their faith or the faith of their family. And so that’s how I think about it as an educator.
Rep. Talarico: 8:38
And then that’s also how I think about it as a Christian, because in my reading of the gospel, we, as followers of Jesus, are called to care for the least of these, for the outcasts apply to people who are not in our religion, right, who aren’t in our club. And so that’s why, you know, I use the story of the Good Samaritan in the sermon that you mentioned, because I think it’s where Jesus specifically defines neighbor as someone who’s different from us. So the short answer to your question is the reason we shouldn’t post the Ten Commandments in every classroom is because it is not loving our neighbors, our neighbors who are different from us. We can also have a constitutional conversation, but I’m not a lawyer, I’m not a constitutional scholar. That’s not where my brain goes my brain goes to the kids who are left out, and I think that’s exactly where Jesus would want our brains and our hearts to go to
Bishop Wright: 10:17
You know. What’s interesting to me is, when we talk about Christian nationalism, it seems to have a domination and a coercive factor. That’s right, and one wonders where we get that justification from. In Matthew, mark, luke and John, christian nationalism seems to want a power that Jesus shunned, and Jesus also shuns the means with which we’re hearing people taking power or wanting to take power. Jesus doesn’t come to start a Christian theocracy, right. And he seems to want to invite us to persuade people by our witness Right. And it’s not about geography, it’s not about religion, it’s certainly not about gender, it’s not about infirmity, it’s something.
Bishop Wright: 11:36
I think one of the reasons we’re getting this big uptick in Christian nationalism is not just because it’s an election year, but because there’s a deep spirit of fear in this. The state of Texas, it’s already there. In the state of Georgia, for instance, it’s already there. So I think that one of the things we do when we get to Christian nationalism, it’s either a lust for power or it’s a response to really to fear. And so we’re really at an intersection. Will we choose to love neighbor, or will we choose to be afraid of neighbor and circle the wagons and use Jesus as permission for all of that?
Rep. Talarico: 12:07
Yeah, I love that you’ve rooted this in fear, which I think is exactly right, and Scripture tells us that love casts out fear. You know a lot of people want to contrast love with hate, but I think really the opposite of love is fear, and so much of the scriptures, both our Christian scriptures and our Hebrew scriptures you know, one of the most common commandments is fear not, do not be afraid, because fear is something that we wrestle with as human beings. I know I wrestle with it all the time, and certainly in 2024, when so much is changing. I mean, the world is changing so fast, so much faster than it’s ever changed before, not just demographically, but technologically and economically and culturally. The world just seems to be spinning a lot faster than it used to, and so I get where people are coming from. I really do. But, as you mentioned, the gospel provides us a path forward through fear, and when we’re having this conversation about Christian nationalism, I often think about that story in scripture where Jesus is walking with Peter right, his top lieutenant, the rock that the church is built on, and Peter, you know correctly, identifies Jesus as the Messiah, and then Jesus tells him that means I’m going to be going to the cross, and you see this in the scripture.
Rep. Talarico: 13:40
You see Peter react with fear, right, and he kind of lashes out at Jesus and says that that can’t be the case, right, that can’t be what being the Messiah is all about. It can’t mean the cross, right. And then jesus says get behind me satan, right to his, to his top disciple, yeah, yeah, and. And so that should show us that this idea of control of power, that that that is not coming from god, that’s not coming from jesus, that’s, that’s coming somewhere else, uh, and that’s, and that’s a deeply human desire that we are called to move past if we’re going to truly follow Jesus to the cross.
Bishop Wright: 14:21
So is it fear, do you think? I mean, in your sermon you mentioned January 6th and you know there’s a couple of images that are really contrasted on January 6th and if you go back and you look at the tape, you see very clearly men and women carrying crosses, carrying Christian flags, and you see also instruments of harm. You see even a gallows is erected for the then vice president. So you know, and we’ve asked other guests, how are we holding the gospel of love, you know, a love that even doesn’t spare itself, even to the cross? How do we hold together that and this notion of Jesus who authorizes, you know, hostile takeovers of governments? How are we help me understand it how are we doing that?
Rep. Talarico: 15:18
Yeah, it’s such a good question. I tend to think that democracy is much more than than laws and institutions. It’s much more than just voting in an election every two or four years. Democracy to me as a Christian and an elected official, it’s a spiritual practice. And I think the greatest champions for democracy I’m thinking in particular about the civil rights movement they were really focused on this idea of practicing democracy as a spiritual discipline.
Rep. Talarico: 15:56
And the reason that it’s spiritual is that it requires a few things. It requires that we listen to our neighbors. That’s kind of fundamental to the idea of all of us living together in peace. It requires that we have kind of the humility to recognize that we don’t have all the right answers. It requires that we resolve our conflicts non-violently and this is probably the hardest part of all. It requires that we give up power when we lose, when we lose at the ballot box, and that again, I really think that the reason I think democracy is so special and the reason I think democracy is a Christian value is because that’s directly aligned with the gospel, the idea of giving up power, of self-emptying for others.
Rep. Talarico: 16:44
That’s exactly what Jesus does. It’s exactly what happens in the Trinity, in the very life of God, it’s the self-emptying into others, and so that’s why I think the image of Christians on January 6th refusing to give up power for their neighbors and violently trying to resolve this conflict was just such a painful image for so many of us, and it’s something that I think should haunt the church and should haunt us as Christians. Even if we weren’t there on January 6th, even if we voted for Joe Biden, it should still haunt us, because that’s our family, that’s our community, that’s the body of Christ that we are a part of, and so that was part of the motivation for me giving this sermon is, I feel, an obligation to speak about this within our family, because it needs to be handled within the church before we can handle it outside the church.
Bishop Wright: 17:47
You know, the wonderful sort of upside down world of the gospel means that precisely at these worst days and times is exactly the right time to try to shed light, right? And so we’re sort of upside down and there’s a lot of consternation, a lot of fear in the system. We’ve forgotten some of the golden rules of forgiveness, some of those muscles are unexercised. And it’s exactly our work, those of us who say we follow Jesus of Nazareth, to remind the system, remind brothers and sisters, and remind this very complex American family that now’s an opportunity to be the words we say on Sunday, right? I always ask people how does your Sunday relate to your Monday, right? Cause it’s one thing to attend church, it’s another thing to endeavor to be church, right?
Bishop Wright: 18:41
So I wonder, I wonder, I’m, I’m, I’m an acquaintance, maybe even a friend of our governor here, governor Kemp, who’s a Republican. I’m a great friend of our our Senator Raphael Warnock. He’s a Democrat, and and and I think that’s that’s what I’m supposed to be doing I’m supposed to be in relationship with people who don’t all agree, we don’t all agree about everything, but we are nevertheless in a conversation. So how’s that going for you in Texas, governor Abbott has been really clear as a Christian that it is okay to send men and women on buses to faraway states to dramatize, you know, sort of the plight at the border? How’s this conversation going about how to be Christian when we have these very complex issues like border security and et cetera? You?
Rep. Talarico: 19:42
When you were talking about the upside down kingdom, that is, the kingdom of God, and how counterintuitive the gospel is right, the idea of turning the other cheek, the idea of loving your enemy. I mean, sometimes I’m just shocked that Christianity became the most popular religion in the world, you know, because a lot of this should not be popular and I still believe that really most of the gospel is not really popular and that’s why you have always seen things like Christian nationalism try to supplant the gospel, because you know so much of this is just deeply countercultural and counterintuitive. But that commandment to love your enemy, I think is central to democracy and to the American experiment, and you mentioned that earlier, your relationship with Governor Kemp or with Senator Warnock, you know. I think the interesting part of that command is that Jesus acknowledges that we will have enemies. Right, if you believe in justice, if you believe in human rights, if you love your neighbors, that’s going to require that you oppose those who are hurting your neighbor. Right?
Rep. Talarico: 20:59
It’s not kind of a call to be polite above all else, right, or to paper over differences or to move past conflict, it’s. It’s not. That is not the what we are called to do. We are called to resist oppression and defend our neighbors, even if that means flipping over some tables in the halls of power. But all of that has to be rooted in a radical love for the people we oppose and that I think is so key. I also think it’s just missing from our current discourse, at least when I get on Twitter or Facebook or Instagram. There’s not a lot of loving your enemy in those spaces, because that’s good business, always has been, and it makes some people very wealthy those who run these platforms. But if we can get back to the idea of loving our enemies again, not papering over conflict Conflict is crucial and we have to lean into conflict but doing it with this steadfast love for those we oppose, I think could transform this democracy and transform the world as it has for 2000 years.
Bishop Wright: 22:25
You know I’m glad to hear you say that. It gives me hope, and I know I’m not the only one listening that will gain some hope here to hear someone who is a follower of Jesus and also someone who is an elected official endeavor to try to walk this line, and so. But this hope is not only yours. My guess is is that my hope is that you’ve found some other folks in Texas who also share this sense of the gospel, its breadth, its depth and its desire to include all. Is that right?
Rep. Talarico: 23:02
I have, and there was a moment in the last legislative session last year when this bill that we were discussing earlier to force teachers to post the Ten Commandments came up in committee and I had this exchange with the bill author, representative Candy Noble, a Republican from North Texas who I consider a friend. You know we disagree pretty profoundly on a lot of public policy issues, but you know I have met her family. She and I have spent a lot of time together, we have similar interests outside of work and we are both followers of Christ and so when she came to the committee that I was sitting on, the public education committee, to bring this bill that I felt was antithetical to the teachings of Jesus, I had a conversation with her, a theological conversation. It was not supposed to kind of leave the committee room, but someone got a hold of the footage and put it online and and it went viral and what a lot of people commented on was that we had this deep disagreement, respectfully, and that shouldn’t be, shouldn’t, that shouldn’t be anything new, but it is in this current day and age.
Rep. Talarico: 24:15
But people were shocked that we were able to treat each other with love and honor each other’s humanity, and I think that’s a straight and narrow path and it’s not easy to do and I fall off that path all the time and I say things that I regret about my Republican friends a lot. But if we can try to hold each other accountable and remember that even Donald Trump is a child of God I don’t think he should be anywhere near the White House, but he is a child of God and is required to the same love, the same respect that any of our neighbors are entitled to. That idea that we get from Jesus in the gospel, I think has the potential to save this country and save democracy all over the world.
Bishop Wright: 25:09
I just can’t thank you enough for being here and sharing your viewpoint with us, and a link to Representative Talarico’s sermon will be in the episode description. Again, thank you so much for the gift of your time and we wish God’s many, many blessings on you.
Rep. Talarico: 25:25
Thank you, bishop. This was a true, true honor for me. So thank you, and God bless you and your team God bless you, bye.
