The Rev. Dr. Pamela Cooper White: 0:00
Nationalism is actually not a religious movement per se. If you look around the world, nationalism uses religion to heighten the appeal of what is basically a movement to restore or purify ethnic national identity. So it’s an ethnic supremacy movement that uses religion in order to legitimize its claims. You see this in Hungary, you see it in Russia, you see it in places all over the world.
Bishop Wright: 0:40
Hi everyone. This is Bishop Rob Wright and this is For People, our weekly podcast that wants to talk about the intersection of leadership and Christian faith. Today we’ve got a special treat We’ve got the Reverend Dr Pamela Cooper White with us. Pamela welcome, thank you for having me. Pamela welcome, thank you for having me. We are delighted to have you with us.
Bishop Wright: 1:06
It would take the length of this podcast to go down all of the distinctions and achievements and good work that the Reverend Dr Cooper White has achieved, but suffice it to say she is the Dean Emerita of the Union Theological Seminary in New York City. She’s the author of 10 books and over 100 scholarly articles and anthology chapters, and she is the Christiane Brooks Johnson Professor of Psychology and Religion, teaching psychoanalytic theory, psychology and religion, teaching psychoanalytic theory, pastoral theology and spiritual care. She is a wife and a mom, and formerly a priest in the Episcopal Diocese of Atlanta. I wanted to have Dr Cooper White on to help us to begin to figure out this bit about Christian nationalism and, of course, she has written a wonderful book that I’m commending the Psychology of Christian Nationalism. And so, pamela, where would you start with all of that Help some of us begin thinking through this idea of Christian nationalism. What is it and why does it appeal to so many people?
The Rev. Dr. Pamela Cooper White: 2:24
Sure. Well, first of all, thank you for inviting me to be a part of this conversation. It’s such an important thing at this time, and I define Christian nationalism as a social and political movement that has the goal of restoring the US to a fictional origin, as a so-called Christian nation with a not at all fictional origin in white masculine supremacy. It’s perceived by its adherence as a battle to restore a threatened white dominance in government and in all of civic and private life, cloaked as a cosmic battle of good and evil to bring about the second coming of the reign of Christ on earth. So it’s white nationalism, cloaked in an extreme and distorted right-wing version of Christianity, that moves in tandem with extremist right-wing politics in this country.
Bishop Wright: 3:20
Wow, you have said a mouthful. Let’s go back to the beginning of it, because I think when I do some reading on this, you know there’s an American deep story that all of us have been formed by nation, by Christian folks. So let’s start there In your work and research. Is that true? Is that mythology? What do we make of that?
The Rev. Dr. Pamela Cooper White: 3:52
Well, on the one hand, Christian nationalists make a lot of the idea that the founders were all essentially evangelical Christians as we understand evangelicalism today, and they all wanted the United States to be a Christian beacon on a hill.
The Rev. Dr. Pamela Cooper White: 4:09
That’s not true. The founders were much more diverse religiously and theologically than that. If you look at Thomas Jefferson, for example, who did a cut and paste of the Bible to be more humanist. So that’s a misperception. But I will say that white Protestantism was baked in to the origins of the country in the sense that these were white Puritans who were escaping religious persecution, came here, instituted basically a genocidal movement against the Native people who were here, and also brought abducted people from Africa and the Caribbean to serve as their slaves.
The Rev. Dr. Pamela Cooper White: 4:53
So revival movements that continued on from the origins of the country did ramp up this notion that white American Christianity as they understood it, which became more and more fervently fundamentalist, was the religion of the nation. And even just the fact that we have American flags in churches to this day who are otherwise quite moderate or liberal churches, the Ten Commandments on our courthouse walls and things like that, show that this is something that’s not new and it comes in waves and it goes in waves, and right now we’re in a very extremist wave of this, baked in Christian assumption. But nationalism is actually not a religious movement per se. If you look around the world, nationalism uses religion to heighten the appeal of what is basically a movement to restore or purify ethnic national identity. So it’s an ethnic supremacy movement that uses religion in order to legitimize its claims. You see this in Hungary, you see it in Russia, you see it in places all over the world.
Bishop Wright: 6:13
Yeah, you know it’s, it’s. You know scholars talk about that. Christian nationalism oftentimes flares up in response to demographic shifts. You know we’ve been talking about how the nation’s, the nation, is browning. We’ve been talking about that state by state and we’ve been talking about that as a nation. By 2050, the nation will look very different, the nation will look very different and, for instance, white brothers and sisters will just be one minority group, numerical minority group among many others in this nation.
The Rev. Dr. Pamela Cooper White: 6:56
And so, in response to that, as one author argues there’s a desperation, there’s a fear and this fuels something called Christian nationalism. Have I got that right? Yeah, I mean, the bulk of my research has been on the psychology behind the movement and how people are drawn into this, and fear is a very big part of it. There is a positive draw, which is belonging. Everyone needs to have a sense of belonging and the megachurches developed a style of evangelism that almost uses cult-like recruiting tactics, where you love bomb people and then you move them along from being visitors to seekers, to believers, and once you’re in it’s very, very hard to get out. So there’s the belonging aspect, and when you fuse that with a moral battle, you know, to restore this nation to its godliness because of a perceived degeneracy, then it’s very compelling emotionally for people. But this fear of degeneracy really involves fear of loss of white social status, the fear of loss of jobs to so-called foreigners, and that fuels the anti-immigrant sentiment which statistically is inaccurate. The fear of loss of male headship. You know, headship is an idea in evangelical theology that men should have supremacy over their wives and their wives should have supremacy over their children, and all of it goes up to God. So the patriarchal authority, both in home and in the public sphere, seeing the loss of that with the election of women in government and in business, the Supreme Court’s overturning of Roe v Wade, which was a battle that evangelicals actually weren’t that interested in until they got into a kind of a cynical alliance with right wing operatives who promised them power in return for, you know, a theological idea that they could embrace, embrace, fear of loss of white social status.
The Rev. Dr. Pamela Cooper White: 9:04
As you say, the US Census Bureau predicts that by 2042 will be an end of white majority in the United States. So they’re not imagining that, whereas many of us would see that as a wonderful blossoming of diversity, they are seeing that as a threat, almost an existential threat, to the dignity that they see in being white. And then this can all lead even as far as paranoia. So you see the allure of conspiracy theories, you see a rise of QAnon, and about half of white evangelical Protestants agree with QAnon, according to a study by Denison University. So the notion of the big lie about the election fraud as an excuse to enforce voter suppression, and then there’s a fear of persecution of Christians that has been a sort of paranoid strand that runs through all of this. That, if you don’t hold steady and make America a Christian nation, christians are going to be driven out.
Bishop Wright: 10:04
Yeah.
The Rev. Dr. Pamela Cooper White: 10:04
And then we can talk about unconscious motivations too, if you would like.
Bishop Wright: 10:10
Well, yeah, I want to talk about unconscious motivations.
Bishop Wright: 10:12
I want to also say that you know, as I read and even listen to you and read the newspaper, there’s a part of Christian nationalism that doesn’t rule out violence to assert itself, and so, you know, people might wonder about us having this kind of conversation and the conversation we’re going to have for the month of September. You know, my concerns are not political and certainly it is beneath me and beneath you and beneath this podcast to use this platform to take partisan shots. Where I’m really curious is is how do we involve Jesus in all of this? Right, you know, because that’s what I think we ought to be talking about is is that I agree with everything you’ve said, and that’s been my observation in my reading. But you know, and you can do all the things that I think that you have just outlined without this veneer of criticism Christian talk or Christian speak. So what’s the talk to me about the Jesus part of this, if you will? I mean, I realize it’s just, it’s a big log in the fire that keeps it burning, but what else?
The Rev. Dr. Pamela Cooper White: 11:24
Well, I think it is a big log in the fire. I don’t think it’s just a veneer. I think that what Christian, the Christian part of Christian nationalism is, is, in my research, right-wing extremist preachers align with right-wing political extremists to emphasize not just the whole Bible, as we might look at it, and certainly not the Gospels but, what you see a lot is, especially in the preaching, which comes out of a tradition called dominionism and it believes that Christians should have rulership over all dimensions of civic and political and domestic life.
The Rev. Dr. Pamela Cooper White: 12:16
And so they jump from what they see as a wrathful God of the Hebrew Bible which is certainly a very selective reading of the Hebrew Bible. It doesn’t talk about the sojourner and the stranger. They jump from this wrathful God who is going to come and wipe everybody out, because we have become so degenerate, meaning liberal.
The Rev. Dr. Pamela Cooper White: 12:40
And they jump directly from there to the book of Revelation, which is an apocalyptic vision of the end of times. And this reconstructionism, as it’s called, this reconstructionism, as it’s called, or dominionism, has infused the Christianity so-called of this movement. And so everything that you’re doing, if you’ve gone down this rabbit hole, everything that you’re doing is aiding the return of a vengeful Jesus who’s going to set everything right, meaning making it the way you want it to be.
The Rev. Dr. Pamela Cooper White: 13:31
were under the rulership of Rome. So you don’t get the teachings of Jesus, hardly at all. What you get is what I think of as a very metaphorical but not realistic idea of bringing about the end of times.
: 13:52
This is your producer, Easton Davis. Thank you for listening to Four People, a conversation about faith and leadership. We encourage you to support the show, leave feedback and follow us All from the show’s episode description.
Bishop Wright: 14:14
And now back to Four People. So then let’s go back to the point. So you said you can talk a little bit about the psychological, maybe underpinnings of that, and so what’s the appeal? So if it’s not so, when we dig down in Christian nationalism, we don’t find Matthew, mark, luke and John. We don’t find the Good Samaritan, we don’t find the prodigal son, we don’t find the appreciation of Jesus for the woman by the well and talking to someone who is beyond, we find a xenophobia in this Christian nationalism. We find a rigidity there, we find a wrathful theology. So what are some of the underpinnings that make this have so much appeal to people?
The Rev. Dr. Pamela Cooper White: 14:54
What are some of the underpinnings that make this have so much appeal to people? Well, one of the key things I mean all of the things I described before, especially about the fear feeds into a politics of resentment that’s conscious. I mean people can say white people can’t get anywhere these days, or, you know, men are being overtaken by cat ladies.
Bishop Wright: 15:14
Men are being overtaken by cat ladies.
The Rev. Dr. Pamela Cooper White: 15:18
But underneath all of that and fusing with these cult-like recruiting tactics, is the importance of a narcissistic leader. This was something that Freud observed at the rise of the Nazi power and of the charisma of Hitler, and I don’t ever make that analogy lightly, but I think what we see today is this importance of a narcissistic leader who then becomes kind of the focal point for all of these fears and someone who can say, as former President Trump said, I am your voice, your warrior and your retribution. And so people unconsciously hand over their conscience Freud would have called that their ego ideal or their super ego. They unconsciously hand it over to this person who now will become their modern day savior. They don’t have to think about right and wrong anymore, they simply have to follow this leader. Now, a good leader can also attract that kind of identification, but for good.
The Rev. Dr. Pamela Cooper White: 16:30
But a leader who is only narcissistic and charismatic and in it for themselves will mobilize that toward actually quite a bit of violent rhetoric that can then infuse the movement with a thought that violence can be justified sometimes in order to bring back the righteous nation that they want it to be be, which was basically a nation where they felt like they had some power and dignity. Yeah, they have been fictional, but nevertheless you’ll see a lot of appeals to nostalgia. You saw it with reagan, you see it now, these appeals to nostalgia where white men ruled the government and business and their homes. And so there’s this unconscious desire to follow a leader, and if the leader incites violence, then violence can be justified.
Bishop Wright: 17:23
And the truth of the matter is, is that, you know, all throughout our history we’ve, we’ve reserved, we’ve held together violence with our proclamation of Jesus Christ. I mean, that has just been what we have done, that’s been how we’ve held things together, you know, at home and abroad. But talking about at home right now, I mean we shouldn’t forget that the Ku Klux Klan burned crosses right, and that oftentimes they met in churches. And so I’m fascinated, horrified, but fascinated also by how we hold together these narratives, these narratives of a God of love, unbelievable love, unconditional love, and also that we are to follow Jesus and sometimes use violence to subdue neighbor rather than to love neighbor. It’s you know. So I’m very fascinated by the theology of that.
Bishop Wright: 18:20
Let’s get to that for just a second. So you’ve taken up this big project, you’ve distinguished yourself as a writer, author, academic, but you know. So this book now, and so are you trying to point to, are you trying to recover this Jesus of Matthew, mark, luke and John. With this effort, what do you ultimately want? I mean, you’re alerting us and I’m grateful for that. But in terms of revealing Jesus, talk a little bit about it from that lens, dr Tim Jackson.
The Rev. Dr. Pamela Cooper White: 18:51
Well, of course, as a priest, I mean that’s what I want to do in everything that I do in terms of preaching and writing and so forth, but I think right now, because of the heightened danger of this rhetoric, I have found it important to talk about the danger of the distortions of Christianity that infuse this movement with a violent culture and frankly I may get in trouble with some of our male listeners here but a masculinist culture that also venerates guns and you know guns. I live in central Pennsylvania now, where guns traditionally were important for sustenance, for hunting and for protection, but now gun ownership in this country has far exceeded the need for hunting and protection and I’ve seen a number of banners and baseball caps and other things that say God, guns and guts. America needs all three. And of all of different American demographic groups, pew and PRI say as many as half of evangelical Christians have guns and the group that has the fewest guns, in spite of racist mythologies about violence, are African-Americans. They have the fewest guns in America.
The Rev. Dr. Pamela Cooper White: 20:12
So these things are compelling to me, but what I would say is that I think the only way through this and the only way to get past this is to build relationships with people across the divide and to begin to talk about the Jesus we know and understand to be a Jesus of peace and of justice for everybody, not just a particular ethnic group.
The Rev. Dr. Pamela Cooper White: 20:41
And building relationship is the most key part of that, even if it seems like a small measure. When we can talk to people across the divide and I have a kind of a triage method for that that am I the right person, is this the right place? Is this the right time? Because peace building and coalition building for peace doesn’t happen because we just throw ourselves into a situation. We need to test the waters and we need to build relationship first where there may be some trust and some common values, because even with people who have gone down the rabbit hole of conspiracy theories, we still have common values. We want to see our children grow up strong and healthy and we want to see food on the table for everybody, and so appealing to those common values can be a place to start with conversation with somebody who maybe shows some curiosity or openness and where the relationship already has established some rapport.
Bishop Wright: 21:44
That’s beautiful and I’m so glad you gave us some practical advice. Sometimes we have to pull these sort of ethereal conversations down to where people can use them at the grocery store and just in day-to-day. I wonder what urging you would have for people like you and I, people who convene groups, congregations, perhaps have the privilege of leadership in the church and beyond. Is there a word for us from your work? What would you urge us to be doing?
The Rev. Dr. Pamela Cooper White: 22:16
there a word for us from your work. What would you urge us to be doing? I think the word that comes to mind is care. You know, in my long experience in parish life, but also in other groups, I think you can say a lot of things that may sound opposite to what people are embracing right now. If you show the care you know, you can preach from the pulpit about prophetic messages. If you are somebody who’s known to be the person who gets to the bedside, who gets to the funeral home, who sits with the dying, who sits with the dying, if you show that you really are claiming and proclaiming and acting on God’s love with people, they’re much more likely to listen to you. When you say you know, I have trouble with that idea and here’s why because I think this is what Jesus said You’re going to be heard a lot better if you’ve also shown them that you care about them and you’re not just trying to hammer them over the head with a political message.
Bishop Wright: 23:20
Right, right. That’s beautiful, and I think that’s where we’ll leave it today. Ron Heifetz, a great academician and practitioner of adaptive leadership, told me that one time he said if you want to do big change, you’re going to have to love bigger and better.
Bishop Wright: 23:37
And uh and it was. It was absolutely instructive, really transformative to me. And so we’re not preaching anything oppositional here, but we’re talking about we need to love Jesus enough to re-reveal Jesus, uh, as the that, as the savior of us all, as a lover of us all and as the representative of God among us in the flesh. Who talked about a big kingdom where all are welcome, that is centered on truth and justice and mercy. That’s, that’s our calling. But but to to commend that, we have to in some ways be that right. People smell the authenticity on us, and should they smell that, then they might be willing to listen to us. That’s the Reverend Dr Pamela Cooper White, and she is the author of the Psychology of Christian Nationalism, why People Are Drawn In and how to Talk Across the Divide. Pamela, thank you so much.
The Rev. Dr. Pamela Cooper White: 24:35
Well, thank you, and it’s great to see you again.
Bishop Wright: 24:38
Good to see you.
